Emergers, Wet Flies, and Trout Behavior with Scott Sanchez (Traveled #39)

00;00;02;04 – 00;00;31;01 Dave Today’s episode lives in the space between tradition and transition, where classic wet flies meet modern trout behavior and wear patterns that are centuries old. Still. Outfest The newest thing in the box. Scott Sanchez has spent his life in that zone, and today we’re going to find out how he started at 12 years old and learn from some of the best out there and has been refining his craft over the years from working at Dan Bailey’s in Livingston to his long run at JD High Country Outfitters in Jackson. 00;00;31;14 – 00;00;51;09 Dave Scott’s approach has always been the same. Keep it simple, make it move right and let the fish decide. In this episode, we’re going to break down why it matters. And we’re going to get into all the details today. This is the Travel podcast, right? Show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing and how to find the best resources and tools to get ready for that big trip. 00;00;51;20 – 00;01;14;02 Dave I’m excited to share today’s episode with you. We’re going to get into a bunch of great topics today, including. You’re going to find out how to tell where trout are feeding on a merger’s versus drys by reading their noses and the dorsal fins. We’re going to get into that. We’re going to find out what actually defines and a merger and a cripple and why the trailing shock and the partial part of the body is a key part of this. 00;01;14;15 – 00;01;30;20 Dave We’re going to talk about swing and soft tackles and why this works so well, especially during Cats hatches and other hatches and how a lot of people get this wrong that are fishing out there. We’re going to get into the step by step to fishing and mergers whet flies. We’re going to talk about Scott’s go to patterns. This one is jam packed today. 00;01;30;20 – 00;01;48;15 Dave I’m so excited to share it with you. And we are going to be following up with Scott as we go as well. So let’s just get into it. You can visit Idaho and support Yellowstone Teton Territory as you go. We’re going to be heading there this year. We mentioned at the East Idaho Fly tying Expo. This is a big one this year, March. 00;01;48;27 – 00;02;07;24 Dave So we’re going to talk about that as well. So here he is. Scott Sanchez, let’s get into it. Here’s Scott Sanchez. How are you doing, Scott? Really good. Good. Great to have you on here. We’ve I’ve heard a lot about you over the years on the podcast. Definitely your name has come up a lot. So I’m excited to talk today. 00;02;08;03 – 00;02;24;04 Dave I think flight timing is probably one of the first things that a lot of people, you know, hear about with your name. I know you’re out doing a lot of stuff, so we’re going to talk about that. But I think also focus on, you know, a merger’s tying, you know, mergers, fishing, maybe get in to that that process. 00;02;24;04 – 00;02;36;14 Dave I think that’s a struggle for a lot of people is the difference between dry flies and mergers, how to fish them. So. But first off, before we get into all of that, take us back real quick on fly fishing. I know you’ve been doing this a while. What’s your first memory out there? 00;02;36;27 – 00;02;57;23 Scott I started Fly Fish and Fly Time. I was 12 years old. I grew up in Salt Lake and my brother in law, John Wightman, was our scoutmaster. They had old Kurdish fly Typekit. And you know your five years old, you have a tough time in the summer, right? And just get on our bikes and ride around and learn how to fly fish in City Creek and Salt Lake. 00;02;57;23 – 00;03;03;14 Scott And fortunately there’s some really stupid fish or some really bad flies and some really bad presentations. But we had fun. 00;03;03;28 – 00;03;12;02 Dave Yeah, that’s awesome. So yeah. So you’ve identified Salt Lake and where did you start tying? So you started tying about the same time you started fly fishing. 00;03;12;15 – 00;03;12;26 Scott Yeah. 00;03;13;05 – 00;03;22;02 Dave Yeah. You know what keeps you busy these days? You know? What are you, are you doing more tying or fishing or. Describe that a little bit. I know you get around, do some of the shows, right? 00;03;22;14 – 00;03;46;07 Scott I mean, I work at JD High Country Outfitters and they’ve done the show thing before. Pretty much. The only show I really do is at East Idaho. Fly to an expo in Idaho Falls, which is pretty fun, showing the best fly tying talent. But we’re going to show up four days a week and then they have my bad habit the rest of time fishing, hunting, skiing, bike riding, shooting guns, shooting bows. 00;03;47;08 – 00;03;50;11 Dave They sell pretty much all the outdoor activities you’re into. That’s great. 00;03;50;17 – 00;03;52;28 Scott Yeah. Live in the right place to do it. 00;03;52;28 – 00;04;03;02 Dave Yeah, Jade’s does. I mean, we’ve had Jack Dennis on and we’ve done the podcast rounds, so it’s always, always entertaining, but. So they have some. Right. You guys sell a lot of guns at the shop there, too? 00;04;03;15 – 00;04;12;00 Scott Yeah. We’re like, the only gun place in Teton County, Wyoming. So we’ve got a pretty, pretty big selection of lots of variety. 00;04;12;09 – 00;04;18;21 Dave Yeah, definitely. Okay. And when you’re at the East Idaho show, what do you typically ty there? What’s your focus? 00;04;19;02 – 00;04;35;03 Scott I try everything. I kind of go with the flow. And a lot of the time demos with all the articles I’ve done over the years, people a lot of times ask me to show them some this on our record, and I might be from ten or 15 years ago, but I kind of go with the flow and try to contain it a little bit. 00;04;35;03 – 00;04;37;11 Scott I usually do a clash or two over there as well. 00;04;37;22 – 00;04;42;28 Dave Okay, So yeah, So you’re doing. Yeah, and you pretty much do a little bit of everything, right? Is that the case? 00;04;43;08 – 00;04;50;08 Scott Yeah, I try. Trout fly, salt water, warm water. Santa Claus is Christmas trees, bugs, Bunnies. Yeah. 00;04;51;12 – 00;05;12;20 Dave Nice. Okay, well, you know, I think like you said at the top, you know, I think part of the struggle for some is fishing and tying and mergers and, you know, and the differences between that and maybe emerging patterns and dry flies and all that. But let’s take that back real quick. What do you think are if people are getting wanting to fish in mergers, what are you tying and how are you doing? 00;05;12;20 – 00;05;16;11 Dave And maybe describe that a little bit. What do you think are some of those top patterns that you know? 00;05;16;12 – 00;05;42;21 Scott Well, I think first thing is people realizing when fish are keying on mergers or triples, it means that transitional stage, I mean, and with some mayfly catfish, some of the strong flies, midges, I mean, they start life as underwater as a larva now and then at some time they migrate, drift, swim and change into the adult. And that transition in the film, a lot of them get stopped. 00;05;43;00 – 00;06;06;23 Scott I mean, that’s plain and simple for shedding their shock. You know, basically they’re there’s the fire alarm and they come out with their pants down. They can’t run away. And so the fish key in that, and one of the best ways to pick that out is if they’re eating a dolphin on the surface, you’ll see a nose. If you’re seeing a dorsal fin, you know, maybe the tail, but you’re not seeing the nose or taking something. 00;06;06;23 – 00;06;26;02 Scott Right. The film or slightly below it. So that’s the first thing you need to figure out. And then, you know, attributes of, say, in a merger or cripple. And I like to think of best way to think about imitation when we’re dealing with people and fish is to what would a four or five year old tell you something? 00;06;26;02 – 00;06;46;22 Scott It looks like they’re pretty succinct. He notes the obvious when you’ve got a trilling shark, which is almost like a shed snakeskin, where they’re transferring from that larval mouth, they body that’s trying to get out of that. They got wings. I mean, and the wing case is literally a backpack for wings when they basically inflate like what, their version of blood. 00;06;47;02 – 00;07;03;25 Scott So there’s that stage where they’re kind of stuck. I mean, they have no escape mechanisms like they would if there were a name for a larva. It could swim or, you know, run or whatever. And they can’t fly away like an adult. So it’s easy food for the fish oil and fisher fish. You’re trying to be easy, efficient. 00;07;04;05 – 00;07;08;09 Scott How you become the biggest fish in the river. You should be the laziest and spend the least amount of energy. 00;07;08;22 – 00;07;20;13 Dave Yeah, that’s right. No, that’s awesome. So you mentioned trying to identify them, you know, as they’re coming down. Describe that again. How do you know whether it’s a fish eating bugs on the surface versus like in a merger? 00;07;20;27 – 00;07;39;24 Scott I mean, typically if they’re eating something on a server, she will she knows and may hear that audible pop. You know, they pick out a lot of fish with your ears. But if they’re feeding on a mergers or just in the film or below the surface, you typically see a dorsal fin, but not an out because you’re not coming to the surface. 00;07;39;24 – 00;07;44;29 Scott They’re very close, but their heads are not coming out of the water. Their mouths are not coming out of the water, I should say. 00;07;45;09 – 00;07;56;21 Dave Yeah, that’s it. Okay. And then and then as you’re tying these is thinking about the merger. Describe that in the the stages and then also how the cripples how that’s different maybe than just your typical merger. 00;07;57;00 – 00;08;30;16 Scott Okay. So basically, depending on the species, you probably could be looking at, you know, two level species, sub surface level Weather Channel transitioning they’re trying to make of the surface. Yeah. Which in some case it would be a now for a very sometimes a never this fish very shallow just a few inches below the surface. You know some of the old school won’t fly especially with catfish or super well used my one feather wet fly I mean you’re a traditional fish until soft tackle you know parturition peacock partridge in and hair all work really well. 00;08;30;28 – 00;08;59;21 Scott And then there’s a final transition where they’re in the film and they’re trying to go from basic being, you know, breathing oxygen through water to breathe and oxygen through air. And it’s kind of crazy they can do that in that short amount of time. The but there’s a lot of them that get stuck. I mean, when the colder conditions, you know, or trap I mean, there’s that stage too, where they make of the top and then one comes over and it blows your wing in the water and there’s too much surface tension to get out of it. 00;09;00;05 – 00;09;19;13 Dave Right? Right. So there’s a mix. It’s so yeah, it’s obviously not totally straight, one size fits all, but so you might have the nip. You’re fishing just below the surface a little bit and that might be the So soft tackles can imitate that. And then when you get into the film is your one fly or the one feathered fly that is kind of your wet fly, that’s your go to for just below the surface. 00;09;19;24 – 00;09;42;19 Scott Yeah, that’s one for below the surface. I mean in the surface film, I mean I there’s probably three parents of fish and since all the insects kind of look about the same, regardless of what they are in that stage, you know a shot partial body screwed up wings and legs I’ll fish my PFO a merger which is kind of evolved into a split type of merger. 00;09;43;00 – 00;10;03;02 Scott And the nice thing about that is I could be blowing all of hatch with midges in it and I’ll eat the same fly and then my everything a merger, which is kind of a hybrid, trying to, you know, sparkle down and catfish with my different way of having cripple legs on it. Fluff up the wing to make them fly, smash it down to make a canister stone fly. 00;10;03;21 – 00;10;09;21 Scott Those are probably the three emerge as I fish 95% of the time. Just some different colors and different sizes. 00;10;10;05 – 00;10;17;07 Dave Nice. And we’re just where people can take a look at what would be the best place to see some of these patterns that you’re talking about that you tie. 00;10;17;24 – 00;10;47;13 Scott In the one feather fly. I’m pretty bad on doing the social media or YouTube. I mean, the old and lazy and certainly so many magazine articles teach and fly fish food. And these are either one feather fly at the East Idaho actual last year did get a good video on that I mean they were all those patterns were in when I was the fly trying columnist for American Angler You can look up at the aircraft archives of that and you can find a lot of those in there. 00;10;47;27 – 00;11;06;03 Scott And then there’s a bunch of YouTube videos that we did with, you know, Jack Dennis, you know, the high country outfitters that I went on Tuesday, which are my patterns are we did some of those for a while. And then there’s seems like I find some old videos of me on YouTube without really having to look. 00;11;06;14 – 00;11;13;10 Dave Right right So you got stuff out there that’s awesome. Yeah. Because you’ve been doing this a while. When did you start the first YouTube video? Was that quite a while ago. 00;11;13;22 – 00;11;29;04 Scott I mean, they’re doing the videos before YouTube. You know, Jack Dennis has put a bunch of those old videos on or you’re doing something at a club or something, you know, doing a time demo or teaching. And it seems to filter out to the world of the Internet. 00;11;29;13 – 00;11;46;21 Dave Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. So we’ll search up some of that and I see some of them here of yeah, you’re which AIDS wild world of fly fishing and tying here. We’ll get links to some of those in the show notes and so describe that a little bit for folks that can’t see that right now. The one feather you know whet fly describe that pattern a little bit. 00;11;47;04 – 00;12;09;17 Scott Okay. So it’s pretty simple. I mean, it’s a doubled body. And now if you do them in synthetic you know like and try and type dubbing but here’s they’re kind of peacock color all of an owl rib the body you know tie the body in the rear of the body is about two thirds the length the shank and then they tie in a hand tackle tap. 00;12;09;17 – 00;12;35;01 Scott Or it could use a grouse or partridge feather if you ever tried like the old partridge Cats, which is a great kind of cat, is cripple adult. You tie in the the Hackl tapped softly on top of the hook, shake and actually get wrapped a few times and pulled out the kind of see that no actually kind of fold the wing back, but instead trimming off the bunch of that, you just pull it back and tie it back and then wrap it to make a soft tackle. 00;12;35;14 – 00;12;52;14 Scott When originally this came from like years ago when Whiting Pascall first had those black lace, white, white lace, black tackles. They were such gorgeous feathers and I was trying to figure out what to do with them. It’s like he could do a partridge Kaddish. But then I saw I was like, This is so cool. It could just make the heck out of it. 00;12;52;14 – 00;13;07;23 Scott And so it’s a it is a really fluid, fun fly to tie a lot of hands. I’ll try Crystal Flash and Tanner over the top of it, which might give it a little bit of flash. But I mean, if you want to catch fish or in the case hatches between flies, it’s much more effective than dry flies. 00;13;08;02 – 00;13;24;02 Dave Yeah, this is great, you know. So I see it. Yeah. It’s basically it looks kind of on the surface like a like a soft tack or some type of wet fly. Right. But it’s got the unique thing is it has this what you’re describing as it’s got that soft tackle but it’s also got the tip of a Hackel hanging in the back that Yeah. 00;13;24;02 – 00;13;25;01 Scott That’s the wing. 00;13;25;01 – 00;13;25;22 Dave That’s the wing. 00;13;26;00 – 00;13;44;13 Scott And then being flat also, I mean it’s has a kind of actually makes it wiggle in the water little flutter like you know, gallop through a cougar or something. You got a flat wing almost like a spoon that’s going to kind of make it. Oh, right. I’ll say so. I mean, I didn’t do that intentionally, but I’ll take down log anytime. 00;13;44;22 – 00;13;45;21 Scott No fish those. 00;13;45;26 – 00;13;47;05 Dave That’s awesome. Yeah. How do you fish it. 00;13;47;16 – 00;14;06;09 Scott I mean if fishing at two at a time and I love the show and wet fliers and soft tackles, I mean it’s a very efficient way to cover a run. And where it really excels is callouts where there’s, you know, there’s a big fish bee comes up every 5 minutes, is basically feeding below the surface taken in the cat pupa coming to the top. 00;14;06;21 – 00;14;22;15 Scott And so you can cover every inch of water in a single hand or I have nine and a half to six or eight or play around, have a little kind of half three weight class bay and throw that and it’s you. It takes a lot of skill. It’s not just throwing it out. Let it swing. It seems to work best. 00;14;22;15 – 00;14;43;18 Scott If you made it up or down streams, you get the kick a little bit faster than the current. At the end of the swing, but just kind of like a lot of that, you know, swing and flies. And there’s times too, where you do the, you know, bring me back my ages life, anything left where I might fish like a beet head on the bottom fly and that one feather on the top. 00;14;43;18 – 00;14;59;05 Scott So there’s it comes it’s coming up and swing at the same time like something coming to the surface and you get some pretty good grabs. I mean, I always a fish that at least reacts you know offer the fish don’t seem to care the efficient lighter stuff sounds you’re just pop fish after bigger fish. 00;14;59;17 – 00;15;05;08 Dave Gotcha. So yeah you could fish this with to describe that. What was that? The lasering lift. Well, describe that a little bit. 00;15;05;08 – 00;15;26;05 Scott Oh, I got it from Olajuwon’s first name, but yeah, this goes back in the 50 seconds, you know, and doing him during that a merger thing. But basically you’re trying to get that a merger shrink and then it’s kind of showing up in the water current as well as swinging around, which is really what a lot of the, you know, mergers are doing. 00;15;26;09 – 00;15;31;02 Scott I mean, they come from the bottom to the top, so they kind of mimicking what nature’s doing. 00;15;31;12 – 00;15;52;25 Dave Yeah, that’s right. So it’s lies and it’s lies and reorganizing Ranger Lee I s E and are I in G licensing left. Yeah. One of the it says I’m looking to hear the one of the most misunderstood of the wet fly methods occurring. So yeah. So I’ve seen something from Dave Hughes talking about it here but yes there’s that, but basically what you’re talking about is putting some sort of movement. 00;15;52;25 – 00;15;59;22 Dave You’re not just casting down across it, letting it swing without any emotion or, you know, you’re doing something to the fly. Sounds like. 00;16;00;03 – 00;16;21;15 Scott Yeah, I mean, and a lot of it’s just learning how to control the drift in the swing by Manning up or downstream. It’s much easier in a run where you have consistent flows. It takes a lot more effort. If you’re doing a variable current, you know, like you might be fish and pot of water, you got to fish each little section or slack as an individual visual piece of water. 00;16;21;27 – 00;16;36;10 Scott You can’t just throw it across and expect that to work across multiple currents because you can get multiple speeds. So, I mean, it’s it takes a lot more skill than people think, but when they figure it out, right, it’s pretty fun when you get that grab. That’s actually really nice. 00;16;36;19 – 00;16;48;06 Dave Right. And can you fish so you’re fishing. What flies when you say run? That’s kind of your standard kind of uniform flow, almost like a maybe, you know, steelhead type water, right. You know, for within the water. 00;16;48;07 – 00;16;48;29 Scott Exactly. 00;16;48;29 – 00;16;54;05 Dave Yeah. What are the types of water? Would you be fish in the wet fire efficient in riffles pools? Where else would you fish? 00;16;54;08 – 00;17;14;06 Scott You can fish in the river falls. I mean, that’s where the fish are going to be in the ruffle or just below the riffle if they’re actually feeding. That’s the grocery store. And you know, in the river, I mean, where can goes to drain, you know, work at there? I mean, you can work your classic pool self with the low chop and the water tends to animate your fly more. 00;17;14;23 – 00;17;36;02 Scott I mean, it’s going to you know, wiggle up and down a little bit more than it would if you’re on flat water. And that’s actually you’re probably imitating more cats and anything else. Which cats tend to be in more oxygenated water on that. But you can fish in a lot of different things. And it’s crazy how like you can go through, you can throw a dry a fly, nothing going on. 00;17;36;02 – 00;17;53;22 Scott You go through and swing. It’s like, Oh my God, these fish are actually, you know, you just have to give them what they want. And, and some of it is that the dog seeing up run down the street and it instantly chases after it. And what’s crazy is how hard some of the hits are the dog fish. And then I’m sure it came out of your hand. 00;17;53;22 – 00;17;59;07 Scott And my guess is that the the fish and flier go in the same direction. So the hook points aren’t going the right way. 00;17;59;29 – 00;18;00;13 Dave Right. 00;18;00;26 – 00;18;09;27 Scott And there’s also kind of handy when your fish nose evening hatch is where it’s glittery and it’s almost dark where you’re fishing by field rather than fish and by sight. 00;18;10;04 – 00;18;24;01 Dave Yeah, that’s a good feel you a tug. And that’s what’s cool about this. So and you’re talking for the most part, you’re swinging these wet fly is like casting out and swinging it down. Or are you doing other casting upstream or are you doing other depending on what you’re fishing. 00;18;24;01 – 00;18;49;19 Scott You pass more upstream to get it down deeper. Now you might throw an upstream man, well, it sank shank shank and then get it deeper and then let swing up. And there’s a lot of variety on that. I mean, there’s times where caching almost not straight down, but, you know, pretty close to straight down or that works better I think, or cross for in most situations is probably the most applicable. 00;18;50;00 – 00;18;52;08 Dave Casting just out out and swinging it down. 00;18;52;21 – 00;19;01;28 Scott Yeah. With just, you know, maintaining the, the drift so you get an acceleration at the end, Right. That seems to be the trick is having an acceleration at the end. 00;19;02;08 – 00;19;14;05 Dave Okay. Yeah. And it sounds like it’s pretty similar to I’m not sure if you’ve done much steelhead fishing, but it sounds pretty similar to that. Like it was still had the same thing. The more you are fishing your fly, the better chance is a pretty similar to that. 00;19;14;13 – 00;19;35;28 Scott Yeah, it’s really similar. I mean, when I was living in Livingston, Montana, and worked for a dam for John Bailey, for Dot Dan Bailey’s fly shop, I mean, I mean those guys out there basically still had fish and for, you know, for brown trout, I mean, and John Bailey live learned from his dad and Joe Brooks and kind of masters in the day of that stuff, you know. 00;19;35;28 – 00;20;04;01 Scott So I’ve kind of done I’ve done a lot of wet fly fishing but that kind of gave me some different angles on it with more thinking lines and one time limit. What flies were the standard, do you think, back when, before there were true floating lines, people watched fish. Why flies? Because you couldn’t fish Try a fly. As I remember being younger and being a little Boy Scout camp by Salt Lake, and there was a male creek and we were fish. 00;20;04;01 – 00;20;23;08 Scott And of course, we’re, you know, 13 years old or whatever. I’m not that smart, you know. Yeah, yeah. But this old guy came down. Know we’re an old pair later swinging the old Sandy might fly, which is basically a hair soft tackle, you know, in reality. And just picking fish at a place he would never stop, you know? 00;20;23;08 – 00;20;51;11 Scott And there’s other stuff like Baitfish I mean are very active swimmers and you find this stuff by accident. We’re like, okay, these fish are not quite my fly, but you’re dragging your fly walking up streams like, Wow, I got infections. Like, wow, maybe I should do that more, you know? I mean, it’s a great method for, you know, fishing to fish are taking actively moving lava nymphs. 00;20;51;11 – 00;20;56;17 Scott And this is a great way to cover water. Plus, it’s just fun swinging that especially with a little two hander. 00;20;56;24 – 00;20;59;27 Dave Is that how you do it typically with the doing like to hundred it like space style. 00;21;00;07 – 00;21;17;09 Scott I do it both. I mean, it kind of depends what I have. I mean, I’ll be trying to fish dry flies and so I have a you know, your standard five or six way and I’ll do it with that. But if I really want to go swing and cover, at least with bigger water, I mean the two handers are just efficient. 00;21;17;23 – 00;21;26;29 Scott I just find for two handers. I mean if nothing else, sometimes I talk too much line, I can catch more fish by fishing the last line, but it’s just fun to throw. 00;21;27;09 – 00;21;46;18 Dave Yeah. Yeah, definitely. No, that’s cool. And it’s awesome to hear with the history going back because I think where flies. Yeah, they don’t have as much. I mean yes you saw they but it sounds like you’re saying is that because the Lions weren’t as good back then, wet flies were more effective because you couldn’t fish dry flies. Was that the case or what was the biggest reason we lost? 00;21;46;20 – 00;21;47;00 Dave Yeah, I. 00;21;47;00 – 00;22;11;12 Scott Mean, you mean ever. Anglers was the first one that had basically plastic file, which was that post-World war cheated by 50 years late fifties early sixties and what float floated lines for years until real recently is the glass microspheres it’s the same stuff they make reflective paint out of the little glass bubbles and they put that in the plastic before that. 00;22;11;28 – 00;22;35;28 Scott You know, they’re some of those old lines are so glad to stuff that dry them out every day, you know, put mutual ownership on. I’m cleaning them dry. And I mean, it doesn’t float. We can plan because I fly lunch, dip a little bit after definition. But I mean, basically these guys are efficient intermediate lines and then it might be all fish like, you know, a big hair, like there’s the old bunion bug, you know, from River ran through, which was mad at a bottle. 00;22;35;28 – 00;22;45;10 Scott What a cork, right? Yeah, a trout popper. And he could fish something like that. But in the new modern foil and you’re pretty much a miracle. And they work. 00;22;45;10 – 00;22;53;16 Dave Right. And in some cases, they’re actually too much. Right. That’s why you have to have all the stinky lines, right? Because you want to get down below the surface and not about. 00;22;53;19 – 00;23;15;28 Scott Yeah, I mean, I mean, one of your guidelines or some that intermediates which are intermediates now are that rather fast in a minute, one and a half like there’s clear lines but you know, Sylvestre name was kind of associated with rejuvenated the softer echoes fished a lot of intermediate lines and he is get down below surface tension in the grave for screamers, too. 00;23;16;07 – 00;23;16;26 Scott Yeah. 00;23;16;26 – 00;23;28;08 Dave Is that what you use in when you’re fishing? These wet fly is like the the one we talked about here. The one feather soft tackle is that are you always using some sort of sticky line or did you fish out with the dry line. 00;23;28;15 – 00;23;50;27 Scott No. Most I’m, I’m fishing a you know, a floating line. I isn’t if I need to get a little bit deeper, you know, I might put like says a bead head on the bottom, but there’s times where maybe I have my single hand rod and they have another and a little too hand or even another rod rigged up with an intermediate or with a sinking intermediate thinking leader to get a little bit deeper. 00;23;51;14 – 00;23;59;03 Scott So, I mean, here again, there’s time, a place for both of them, but it’s nice to have that intermediate or slow incline in your arsenal. 00;23;59;15 – 00;24;14;01 Dave Right. How do you know when you’re fishing where the fish are at? I mean, you could see, like you said, whether sipping dries or the mergers, but how do you know if you need to get down a little bit deeper? Is it just like you’re not getting any action so you put a little bit more weight on or how do you look at that? 00;24;14;10 – 00;24;33;25 Scott Yeah, that’s that’s one of it. One of the things, you know, a lot of it may be, you know, a spring or water temperature a little bit cooler and the fish are eating, but they’re not quite as active as you want. And then sometimes, you know, fish and some of your water, it’s like I know for sure, you know, to hear the guy be feeding. 00;24;33;25 – 00;24;40;11 Scott There’s so many bugs out. I’m not really seeing them, but I need to switch up and do something a little bit different. So just go down a little bit deeper. 00;24;40;22 – 00;24;57;17 Dave Yeah, that’s it. Yeah. So basically just a little trial and error to find where they’re at. And then and then once you find that that spot, you know where they’re at, do you find that that’s good for a period of time, an hour or so. And then as temperatures change throughout the day, that also changes. So you have to follow the warming temperatures. 00;24;57;27 – 00;25;27;08 Scott They can change, the insect activity can change it. And then there’s going to be I mean, nearby as well. Yeah, you’re still efficient, you know, a bunch. But there’s certain places in the runner pole that are the right speed. Like part of it might be too fast, part of it might be too slow. And sometimes it’s pretty subtle or something kind of where you dig back in your memory bank of where fish would hang out in this place or in similar rivers and kind of adapting to that. 00;25;27;20 – 00;25;34;21 Dave Right, Right. You know, water that’s worked before in some river. And then you can find that similar water and apply it probably in other areas. 00;25;34;21 – 00;25;35;01 Scott Yeah. 00;25;35;08 – 00;25;47;06 Dave Yeah. Okay. And so if somebody was listening now and they wanted to tie up a few of your patterns, you know, some that I think well the one feather soft tackle and is it the one for their soft pack or do you do you have a different types of names for the style. 00;25;47;18 – 00;25;49;18 Scott And I got a one feather fly. Yeah. 00;25;49;18 – 00;25;50;02 Dave Wet fly. 00;25;50;02 – 00;25;51;17 Scott Okay, I get it. Yeah. 00;25;51;23 – 00;25;59;16 Dave Yeah. One feather went by what would be a few other patterns that would be in that you know, in your in your box for fish in these wet flies and the mergers. 00;25;59;26 – 00;26;18;01 Scott I mean just like I said, the old classic been around for 200 years or more like you know fashion pterosaur tackle and pheasant house work because they look like everything. You know the you know here’s your soft tackle which is usually partridge in hairs here I mean that’s familiar old flier. 00;26;18;07 – 00;26;23;28 Dave Yeah So those things that we think of as nymphs would work just fine as in a merger, depending on where you’re fishing it. 00;26;24;06 – 00;26;47;06 Scott Yeah. I mean, with the softer echo, the wing, you know, the, the Haskell is doing the the work. You mean it’s kind of looks alive, you know, in the water. It gives a profile. It looks like food imitates a lot of things. And then one thing we forget, I think sometimes in imitation is we look so much of the parents with it’s a dry flier now, but it’s like there’s an act. 00;26;47;06 – 00;26;48;15 Scott Like what you’re trying to imitate. 00;26;48;26 – 00;26;54;01 Dave Yeah, Yeah. I like if you’re imitating a cat’s, they’ll vary depending what species you’re imitating. 00;26;54;13 – 00;27;03;00 Scott Yeah, the cat’s pupa. I mean, most of cat pupa, you know, are fairly active mergers compared to a lot of mayflies or drift or mergers. 00;27;03;00 – 00;27;20;29 Dave Gotcha. So that makes sense. So if you know there’s a cat hatch, come let’s just say it’s in the evening, in the summer. You know, there’s cat us all over the place. They’re coming off. You could fish to imitate that. You know, like you said, your fly here, the one feather or another soft tackle. But if it’s more of a mayfly hatch coming off, you might fish. 00;27;20;29 – 00;27;25;04 Dave Maybe a pheasant tail or something that has less movement. Is that the situation? 00;27;25;14 – 00;27;50;23 Scott Yeah. Or I mean, if I’m, you know, seeing that kind of bulging eyelashes, what they emerge or I’m following the fish, everything, a merger or split type of merger, you know, it’s that’s basically dead drifting in the film but every once large which isn’t a bad thing, you know, whether it’s catching the fishes attention or separating from the other thousands of other bugs that are drifting in front and on. 00;27;51;06 – 00;28;02;09 Dave Yeah, I gotcha. That’s that’s what is that kind of what you have to do when you’ve got a thousands of bugs on the surface and there the fish are eating the real ones. You got to separate yourself a little bit and do something different. How do you attract them? 00;28;02;20 – 00;28;23;10 Scott Well, first thing is, the main reason your fly gets eaten is because it keeps going by, I think trying to get eat the natural bugs and do that. I mean, so much of it is figuring out timing where you know of the rise. If it’s just ate something, went down, it’s not going to see or fly and it’s got to be in the lane of where the fish are when they’re feeding selectively. 00;28;23;29 – 00;28;46;26 Scott But yeah, there’s a little twitch. I mean, this guy crazy like whereas the Livingston that Mother’s Day, a catfish hatch which is pretty famous, says like absolutely crazy. You see like back alleys just littered with bugs. Like one of the best fliers was a coachman crew, which is the same color bodies At peak body is Mother’s Day. The freakish entries, but an orange tag on it first until again. 00;28;46;26 – 00;28;53;10 Scott Sometimes, you know, those little highlights can work on fish. I mean, it’s like they can single it out. 00;28;53;20 – 00;28;55;16 Dave Yeah. What was that? Coachmen flight pattern? 00;28;55;23 – 00;29;06;29 Scott Yeah, it’s just your standard coachman trade. So, you know, you’re. You’re trading at a calf tail, peacock body, brown Haskell. But there’s a golden pheasant tippet tail. 00;29;07;10 – 00;29;07;23 Dave Okay. 00;29;08;05 – 00;29;20;00 Scott And so it looks like the natural low extreme, you know, with a little actually little spice on it. And that would have actually worked really well when the fish were actually gorge, because I think they could see that it was different. 00;29;20;00 – 00;29;28;02 Dave Oh, right. Gotcha. And it’s true. What is the tr udy what does that signify the true was that that word mean brood. 00;29;28;14 – 00;29;50;05 Scott Oh is it true. It is You know that goes back to true ranch on the Henrys for it but the mean the basically the trees overall have like a calf telling and I mean there’s a royal coachman truth you know real coachman body with a you know fashion tell the red flash center I mean lion crude which one when the first one flies with a lime body. 00;29;50;09 – 00;30;05;19 Scott So as that pheasant, tippet tail and calf tail wing, you know, fish and what I mean fish and it dries yet a cool fact. I mean a lot of times when they were originally being fish, you fish a dead drift on the surface and they like swing around you, let it, swing it, strip it, and they take it both ways. 00;30;05;19 – 00;30;10;26 Scott So some of the old school patterns that work as the fish haven’t seen them in 30 years. 00;30;11;07 – 00;30;21;27 Dave Yeah. Is that why those work that way? They still work. Is it just because, I mean, the fish literally are seeing hundreds of patterns of the same pattern? Is that kind of one of the things that you throw something that looks different? 00;30;22;14 – 00;30;41;18 Scott I think it’s huge when you look at some of the tail waters and the traffic on them and fish, they have too much fruit is, you know, the the newest, hottest pattern may not be any better. It’s just different imagery all the time with foam, like when Jackson the last there’s just like an Astroturf Chernobyl central right. 00;30;41;18 – 00;30;42;08 Dave Yeah it is. 00;30;42;14 – 00;31;02;14 Scott Why the how fishy purple chubby is on the red is but after a while like one color’s hot and then the fish won’t touch it. I think it’s like what the reverse. Pavlov’s dog get had had enough times the red hammer and avoid the red hammer but can get you at the blue hammer it it’s not very scientific but it works. 00;31;02;14 – 00;31;21;13 Scott I mean guys just flipping out colors on perturbations. Yeah, you know. Yeah. Changing that completely. And it’s pretty interesting what the natural stuff you can kind of see. But like, just switching the weird colors makes no sense. But fish seem to be curious and put them in their mouth. 00;31;21;20 – 00;31;33;04 Dave They hit it. Yeah. And so, yeah. So the true style pattern that comes, it sounds like from the Henry Circuit, that’s just basically adding a your tail is the big part of that. Tying the golden pheasant or some different tail than what the original had. 00;31;33;19 – 00;31;55;18 Scott Well that was the of the original. The feathers are typical. I mean, those flies go I mean, back in 50 years I mean in a fish originally fished as a streamer but like you know in the days before you know the foam I mean they had hair flash When you had raw. WALSH You had the the wolf pattern from Lee Wolf and Dan Bailey with the upright wing. 00;31;55;18 – 00;32;24;27 Scott And then if you think of the parachute, Adam, the generic mayfly, the glove, the trued pad, your generic don’t fly cats, but it’s very visible. It’s easy to see. And I mean, the golden pheasant tail goes back, you know, tradition. I mean, like a little wet flight had it nearly got from the bridge. But sometimes that little flash of color, I mean, you see you see it now with a lot of announce, you know, with your own style, Nance. 00;32;24;27 – 00;32;44;26 Scott I mean, that then become popular like a bright spot on the fly, you know, like a fluorescent orange or red tag on it. I mean, it doesn’t look like anything in nature. A con ed fragments fly now, but is it just it just shows up? You know, it’s that trigger. I mean, and the bash guys have that figured out more than the trout guys. 00;32;45;03 – 00;32;59;09 Scott I mean, those guys are pretty analytical on it. And I see a lot of bash worms and plastic where there’s colored tips on them. You see was from the revelation we get now and it’s like it’s not natural, but is that a trigger because it just catches the the fish. 00;32;59;13 – 00;33;18;08 Dave I Right. Yeah, that’s a big part of it. Just literally because they only have, you know, milliseconds sometimes right. To make a decision and that little that little. Yeah. Something Yeah that’s, that’s awesome. Yeah I like the traditional flies are cool because you know like you said, they’ve fallen out of you don’t see as much about that but they still work. 00;33;18;08 – 00;33;32;23 Dave I mean I’ve used them, I’ve had trips where I’ve got some of the biggest fish on, you know, some of these patterns. And it’s kind of fun to to get the history. What do you think? Are you meshing? You’ve got a little connection. Who do you think are your biggest influence as you look back on your, you know, your history of fly fishing? 00;33;33;08 – 00;33;56;19 Scott I mean, probably one of the biggest are Jet Dennis. I mean, I work from years still a buddy of mine, both him personally and indirectly by all the people I got introduced to him. I mean, if you haven’t seen my book is that unfortunately this is all three of my books are out of print, but the never ending stream is about the people, and the fliers influenced me and Jackson there. 00;33;56;19 – 00;34;21;26 Scott I mean, you know, Mike Lawson, you know, I met to Jack, you know, kind of learn that you’re more of the Spring Creek stuff and Bob Quigley I mean, Shane Stall Cup was amazing, dude. I mean, that’s just really innovative. Fly like is CDC parachute, which is in the parachute, but it’s such a simple way to do it, you know, just Johnny Boyd, good friend of mine that like you go over his house like Charlie. 00;34;21;26 – 00;34;41;17 Scott How did you figure that out? I mean, that’s like, so cool. And I think with a lot of the fly time, it’s is not that complicated things, just the real simple things. I mean, Rene, your hair had plenty and it ruined off the book. You know, look at hair. If I was him and Bonnie and their kids tied, I mean, are immaculate. 00;34;41;17 – 00;35;00;23 Scott They’re beautiful flies. It’s anything but most out free materials. They’re not that many steps. They’re just executed really well. I mean, it’s kind of a good analogy with the good fly tan, I think is is kind of like art, like a cabinet maker or knife maker. Yes, it’s well done, but it’s meant to be used. I mean, then there’s yeah, they’re part of it. 00;35;00;23 – 00;35;42;01 Scott You know, there’s, you know, Atlantic salmon flies with the realistic flies Helmand and Christmas tree flies. I mean are art for art’s sake. But like to me the the flies that are efficient that were there are simple, they’re beautiful. I mean, that’s the from the most important influences. I mean, Doug Swisher I mean like, you know, before the phone flies, I mean, the madam at from a fish, a foam bed madam, a probably my favorite hopper or stone fly, whatever it fly, it’s simple, it works, it wiggles, it jiggles, you know, and some of that simplicity and crooked tie it comes from, you know, I haven’t tried commercially for a long time. 00;35;42;15 – 00;36;03;06 Scott And it’s interesting, my job at Dan Bailey’s originally I was a fly designer and and it worked in house as a wholesale manager was fly designer is retired and flies for production to sell the fishermen and fishermen spend more money than fish do. Yeah. Basically is what things we add to flies the little eyes, a little different things. 00;36;03;06 – 00;36;27;01 Scott And I see the Fishers in seeing eyes on a hopper pattern, you know, that got painted on. But then end your time for yourself and it’s like, okay, I need a need to desert flies for tomorrow. I was like, You start looking at stuff like, what donated, right? What is the important part of the fly? You know, and I see that with a lot of people have tried and yeah, there’s we see some of the YouTube videos are like, Oh my God, how would you fish that streamer? 00;36;27;01 – 00;36;29;01 Scott It took 20 minutes to tie it, man. 00;36;29;01 – 00;36;30;03 Dave I know, You. 00;36;30;03 – 00;36;31;00 Scott Know, I. 00;36;31;00 – 00;36;35;08 Dave Know. Yeah, you’re talking. Yeah. The guide flies, right? Make something you can whip out pretty quick. 00;36;35;17 – 00;36;59;15 Scott Yeah. Yeah. But they can be done really well. I mean, that’s a lot of my influences, you know? I mean, that book too is, you know, rainy riding, that rainy as rain, these flies. I mean, she is the first person I see. So I use in Super glue consistently. I mean, and I use that a ton. I mean, it’s a simple way for a lot of materials to not have your flies to a solid, durable flight. 00;36;59;22 – 00;37;12;05 Scott You know, and especially with some of the big foam flies, I mean, there’s almost no way not to die. You know, some of the saltwater flies like a flesh up crap, man. If you don’t have super glue, it never going to tie it. It’s going to fall off the hook immediately. 00;37;12;18 – 00;37;22;03 Dave Yep. Super glue, for sure. What is the damn babies? What was the now are they. I’m trying to think. Are they still is there still some of that out there? Is Bailey still going out there? 00;37;22;11 – 00;37;28;26 Scott Yeah. So I mean that in John Bailey was the owner and sole proprietor there. I mean any. 00;37;29;03 – 00;37;34;11 Dave Yeah. Damn the history is Dan Bailey goes back quite a ways. Right. Well what was the original? He was like the first. 00;37;34;12 – 00;38;02;10 Scott 30 years, 1938. He grew up in Turkey where she’s a rocket scientist and he buddies with Lee was from Europe. Lee Wolf was doing advertising, and they got connected together. I think teaching a flight on cloud and they became buddies. And then, Dan, that he wanted to move last. I was looking at L.A. and driving from Livingston and trying to go up the Bozeman pass and his car broke down. 00;38;02;10 – 00;38;15;12 Scott So I can’t go very far uphill with a broken car. So I went back to Livingston and they were there for a number of days where the car is getting to fetch. And they said, like, maybe we should stay here. But that was their first major fly shop, you know? 00;38;15;18 – 00;38;16;07 Dave Yeah, I was. 00;38;16;07 – 00;38;41;18 Scott In the Rockies, you know, and I mean the commercial fly time for years. I mean, they passed on to his son John, and John was one of the early guys importing flies. And actually it’s like when the first guys with Copolymer leaders and Tibbets, you know, from Japan was, you know, got a lot of history there. And I mean, definitely a cool place. 00;38;41;18 – 00;39;02;07 Scott I mean, the old fish on the wall, but that’s the old classic shop. I mean, John sold it to Del Sexton, which when I first walked down Bailey’s around the storefront and he had an outdoor shop called Timber Trail for about probably for 20 years. And he bought the business from John. They’re not doing the, you know, the imports and stuff. 00;39;02;07 – 00;39;11;21 Scott He has the fly shop, but it was great because it’s actually somebody that’s familiar with the history that grew up on Livingston that were up there. So you got the classic fish on the wall. 00;39;11;21 – 00;39;13;21 Dave And yeah, So is the shop still out there? 00;39;13;26 – 00;39;18;16 Scott Yeah, I mean, it’s the shop, it’s there as the shop is not There is the imported like it was. 00;39;18;18 – 00;39;19;11 Dave Okay for. 00;39;19;11 – 00;39;21;17 Scott Fly producer but yeah, for the shop. 00;39;21;17 – 00;39;24;20 Dave But you could stop by. Go still go to Dan Bailey’s fly shop. 00;39;24;27 – 00;39;25;07 Scott Yeah. 00;39;25;16 – 00;39;39;24 Dave That’s it. Where’s that. What city is it in Livingston. Yeah. So it’s in Livingston. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah. Dan Bailey’s. I mean, I think I didn’t have a ton of connection, but yeah, they made all sorts of stuff, right? I mean, they made I know they made one pair of waders that I love back in the day. 00;39;39;24 – 00;39;41;23 Dave Those waders, they had boots, right? They had everything. 00;39;42;03 – 00;39;44;29 Scott It was there when we started doing that as a wholesale manager. 00;39;45;05 – 00;39;54;00 Dave Oh, you were there when Bailey started doing the waiters and all that? Yeah, Yeah, those were great waiters. Those, you know, the line I’m talking about. Not sure if you had multiple lions, but those are awesome waiters. 00;39;54;11 – 00;40;04;05 Scott Those lightweights were bombproof. I mean, they lasted forever. I mean, it was the first time that the fly fishing industry had a reasonably place good waiter. 00;40;04;14 – 00;40;05;02 Dave Right? 00;40;05;15 – 00;40;09;13 Scott I mean they imported the Iraqi horsemen leaders for years. 00;40;09;24 – 00;40;21;17 Dave Yeah, that’s cool. So that’s kind of a law on Bailey’s. And then, you know, back to again, the Tang. Remind us again on are you going to be out at the time show you mentioned before on the eastern Idaho. Are you going to be there this year? 00;40;21;28 – 00;40;39;24 Scott Yeah, I’ll be there like it’s like March 21st, 22nd, I believe. Hey, over there. Mean, it’s in the neighborhood. I really like the guys and it’s like it’s sometimes they might be better fly trying talent than they are International Expo you know the well it’s the fly fishing fairs what they call it now. 00;40;40;02 – 00;40;41;11 Dave Oh yeah the one back east. 00;40;41;20 – 00;40;45;09 Scott Word of no, the fly fishing International. I mean used to be the fifth. 00;40;45;19 – 00;40;46;03 Dave Okay. 00;40;46;04 – 00;41;07;15 Scott They just had one in Grand Rapids, but like, there’s just a lot of really good tires within a four hour radius of Idaho Falls, Right. I mean, and you can take classes from really prominent people for 50 bucks, I mean, which is unheard of. They do a great job of that. And they just all fly a tire. Most a lot of good vendors there. 00;41;07;29 – 00;41;08;23 Scott It’s a fun deal. 00;41;09;02 – 00;41;25;03 Dave Yeah, that’s awesome. So that is what makes it cool is that you got a ton of great fly tires, including yourself. There. I mean, yeah, $50 for a classroom. Somebody like that is pretty amazing. And then and then pretty much just like, like a lot of these expos, you sit around and you tie essentially, right? People watch your tie. 00;41;25;11 – 00;41;30;11 Dave What else is going on at that at that event? Is that pretty much and then you have some demonstrations or people get. 00;41;30;11 – 00;41;57;05 Scott Mostly fly tying or and it but there’s you know cashing programs now that’s back in the spring the applied to some like you know cashing fishing workshops last year because of you know snafu they the convention Saturday got in February which now I’m sure really didn’t do it they didn’t realize much on casting or fishing but anyway they’re planning on that this year and they do a great job with the, you know, the kids and the women’s outreach stuff. 00;41;57;15 – 00;41;59;05 Scott I mean, it’s it’s a great event. 00;41;59;16 – 00;42;14;29 Dave Yeah. No, that’s great to hear. I haven’t been that one, but I’m hoping to get there this year in March. Well, we’ll get a link out to that one as well. And then I’m looking at your book to the Never Ending Stream, a tribute to flight tying form and function. So that was one book. We’ll get a link in the show notes to that as well. 00;42;15;14 – 00;42;17;13 Dave What are the other you mentioned a couple other books you had. 00;42;18;16 – 00;42;53;11 Scott The first one I did is Introduction, the Saltwater flier tion, which I did with Jim Pruitt, and I did it because there’s basically no beginner saltwater tying and there’s a lot of recipe books. And at the toot my own horn too, I mean with I’ve been around teaching enough that the biggest thing I have with LA, the Flight handbook for beginners, they’re not logical sequence for tying ability they like they’ll go by a may fly or cat or whatever in that book I did where you know the first fly you tie is a barracuda fly. 00;42;54;00 – 00;43;11;02 Scott If you can’t title on to a hook, you just throw away the book and then, you know, the next step we actually next fly, we tie basically oh it’s it is for pal a worm or like a simple mental but she had a tail and he added a board and it kept building up like that. And is that a prayer? 00;43;11;02 – 00;43;35;11 Scott You find them on Amazon or eBay or whatever. But it’s also a great warm water book. I mean, I covered everything all the way at the here, the hair. You know, I did it. It came out 2005. But it’s still, I think, the best, you know, entry level. That’s really the only truly instructional saltwater book and says there’s plenty of pattern guides and stuff but I find the best there. 00;43;36;01 – 00;44;03;17 Scott And then I did a new generation of trout fly as a tom parallel river press. Those but that book came out 25 it that one came out a little bit quicker than the saltwater. One took a little longer on the saltwater one, but I ran into Tom Para. What a party at Greg Thomas’s house at the end. It’s on the Mass and Fly Fishing Festival 2000 to 2003, somewhere in there and got with him. 00;44;03;17 – 00;44;19;17 Scott And it’s cool. I mean, present a lot of great books and it’s well, refresh is really cool because it’s one of the few independently owned by a person in the publishing business that does not exist anymore. You know, they’re. 00;44;19;17 – 00;44;21;09 Dave All owned by bigger companies now. 00;44;21;20 – 00;44;26;17 Scott Yep. And, well, refreshed. Just look at the layouts and the pictures in the books. I mean, they’re. 00;44;26;24 – 00;44;27;28 Dave Yeah, it’s high quality, premium. 00;44;27;28 – 00;44;52;23 Scott Quality and then the never ending stream I did with pro publishing and like a done, you know, two instructional books. I’ve done tons of instructional fly tying articles. I mean, I, as a columnist for American Angler, did the fly time editor for No Fly Fisherman. I did some stuff for Fly Rod and Rail for Amato for Japanese magazine Group. 00;44;52;23 – 00;45;15;12 Scott I did a bunch and it’s like I wanted to do something beyond the fly time. And so I’ve never external streamers, like basically, you know, the history of the people influence me, which I love the history. And then on this book here, I mean, I did the photos, I did the illustrator Oceans attacks, I did everything but the layout. 00;45;15;12 – 00;45;20;10 Scott So it’s kind of cool. I mean, it’s a little bit of a coffee table book, but that’s amazing. 00;45;20;21 – 00;45;34;28 Dave Yeah. You’ve got so much going here, you know, we won’t be able to capture it all today, but I think we’ll get some people, you know, excited about it. But I want to take it back to we were on that chat with the wet flies and and all of that. You know back to we talked about some of these are mergers. 00;45;34;28 – 00;45;42;10 Dave What about the cripples Have we talked about that? Is that a different kind of fly pattern you’re tying? Are you thinking about fishing it differently? 00;45;42;21 – 00;45;44;17 Scott The ripple and mergers kind of overlap. 00;45;44;17 – 00;45;45;16 Dave Yeah, they overlap, you know. 00;45;45;16 – 00;45;51;29 Scott Basically a cripple as a, you know, a merger that didn’t make it. Yeah, right, right. 00;45;52;01 – 00;45;55;18 Dave It didn’t make it through that surface film. It actually got stuck in. Yeah. 00;45;55;18 – 00;46;32;11 Scott Yeah. You know, and yeah, I mean some of they get stuck in the shark, I mean some of it could be like this is environmental conditions, I mean, and nature survives with small things by having numbers of them, you know, not all of them are going to survive. So you got to have a bazillion of them. But yeah, the transitional thing there, the cripple, is when it doesn’t make it, but it’s also you could lump cripples with, you know, like a mayfly that does emerge and gets out the surface, but then it topples over because the wind or whatever are current and there’s so much surface area they’re never going to get out of the 00;46;32;11 – 00;47;00;05 Scott water. And I think that’s what’s great. What’s nice does emerge is that fish are somewhat generic. They could be a lot of things and the old school dead, drifting, a soft echo works really well. That’s one of the go tos when like the fish won’t eat anything else. You know, you know, basically some of the really simple CDC patterns there, it basically it looks like a fly called the f fly, which works incredible for really picky fashion. 00;47;00;05 – 00;47;21;01 Scott It’s nothing. It’s a sweater dove body with basically a cat, a swing at sea. And you see in there the reference tide, the better it is. But something that kind of looks like something that just swap in there on the shirts, you know. But yeah, the cripples just basically the ones that didn’t make it, you know, on fish don’t care for the bugs alive or dead. 00;47;21;13 – 00;47;26;15 Scott You know, they get the same calories. The dead bugs don’t run away or, you know, crippled folks don’t run away. 00;47;26;15 – 00;47;33;26 Dave Make it easy for them as that with the dead drifting when you we talked about swinging flies, but dead, drifting. How would you do that? How would that be different from the swing? 00;47;34;07 – 00;48;04;21 Scott I mean, you’re basically fishing like a dry fly, but, you know, it could be in the film or lower floating, you know, on. But it’s kind of crazy with when you want talk about activity on a trail, when a trout or brown trout smashing scope or we think of a predator when they’re eating a mayfly adult for basically I mean baits meat and the best way to describe what’s going on with fish being selective as you go up to Canada and there’s a caribou migration, the wolves are waiting. 00;48;04;21 – 00;48;24;24 Scott They’re not moving left or right the way in because it’s a predator, one migration. And then the other thing they’re doing is looking for the healthiest animal and looking for that one with the love for the one or three legs. They’re looking for the, you know, some something signifies weakness, whatever that trade is. And that’s kind of that merger cripple with the shark, right. 00;48;25;06 – 00;48;38;17 Scott Partial body, the little snakeskin is coming out of mass up wing, you know, messed up body, just one of those more key features that say that this one’s not going to make it. So that’s, you know, that’s how to describe cripples. 00;48;38;25 – 00;48;46;12 Dave Yeah, some are different and it is the shock like what would be a cripple pattern like this is your typical is there one you could look at and say that’s a triple pattern. 00;48;46;23 – 00;48;51;12 Scott I mean that’s split top of mind. You look at Quigley Cripple. 00;48;51;17 – 00;48;52;24 Dave Oh yeah. Quigley Cripple, right. 00;48;53;03 – 00;49;21;06 Scott Yeah. No. Matthew Sparkle, the one x cat, when they could be adult, they could be cripple or be dead. That shark in there, I mean, the the ones that did the Schwitters research about that. Oh, book select a trout, which is still a great read if you want to see a lot of that stuff came from and it’s kind of funny like in that book and then they’re all mentioning at time, you know fish, pyramid, cat and rivers like that. 00;49;21;25 – 00;49;33;09 Scott And they were getting refusals. I mean, they’re very analytical filming, you know, catch a bug, raise them in by dumb luck. They were catching fish on a hobby, which made no sense. 00;49;33;12 – 00;49;34;08 Dave Oh, in a humpy. Right. 00;49;34;08 – 00;49;53;22 Scott But then if you look at that hobby profile, it’s a cripple, Right? And when that moose, a hair tail, could be taken for a shark, there’s that cripple over body. So that’s where some of the original ideas came from. And they improved a lot of their flies. They started off with your Haskell tip sharks. 00;49;54;00 – 00;49;56;04 Dave Yeah, I feel tip shops right. 00;49;56;04 – 00;50;26;18 Scott And they fixed the Henry’s fork a lot and a lot of I mean, a lot of their flights originally were tied commercially via the oceans on the hair. Oh, they were tie there was. Yeah. So there’s that kind of interconnection of, you know, transfer ideas, you know, and different locales, but a similar situation, you know, and I mean, you know, Mike and Vinnie and Bonnie, I mean, I said those guys, I’ll tie three incredible flies for difficult fish. 00;50;26;26 – 00;50;27;10 Dave Right. 00;50;27;16 – 00;50;39;16 Scott Now that that’s where the crypto stuff came from. I think mostly always with Swisher Richards and then obviously a a guy is the East Coast East Coast. 00;50;40;20 – 00;50;43;16 Dave Swisher and Richards weren’t they wasn’t weren’t they East coast to. 00;50;43;22 – 00;50;44;21 Scott Now they’re Michigan. 00;50;44;21 – 00;50;46;19 Dave Oh, they’re Michigan. That’s right. That’s right. Michigan. 00;50;46;19 – 00;50;47;22 Scott Yeah. I think a river. 00;50;48;15 – 00;50;52;28 Dave Oh, I know what you’re thinking of up in New York. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m drawing a blank. 00;50;53;02 – 00;50;59;04 Scott I got to know the original. Compare it on the Catskills. Yeah, on that there. 00;50;59;18 – 00;51;19;11 Dave Yeah. We’ll have to do a little work on that and add that to the show notes. But. But no, I’m looking at the the pattern. You know, like you said, the the humpy or the Quigley cripple. Yeah. When it sits in the water, the idea being is that it’s mostly below the surface. You got that little tuff sticking out that’s floating and it’s, it’s kind of floating but it’s, it’s like mostly in the surface, right? 00;51;19;19 – 00;51;20;17 Dave Is that how that looks? 00;51;20;26 – 00;51;27;03 Scott Yeah. I mean, you look at your standard dry apply. We always see the pictures. I mean, the old classic picture from the damn Paley catalog. 00;51;27;03 – 00;51;34;24 Dave Like the Catskills, Dries is your traditional, like old, traditional dry fights sitting barely. The hackles are barely touching the surface of the water ice just sitting there. 00;51;35;04 – 00;51;37;11 Scott That’s the theory. You know. 00;51;37;12 – 00;51;55;06 Dave That’s not what the more I do these podcasts with people like yourself and the people that know and the more I realize there’s not many people that fish those patterns. Most of the time they’re fish. And what we’re talking about today, which is in the surface, do you find like when is that time where you can or you would throw on something that’s like way like Catskill style dry. 00;51;55;29 – 00;51;58;00 Scott Erase years and all the new modern patterns? 00;51;58;03 – 00;52;06;13 Dave Yeah, right. So they still, like you said, if you’re seeing their nose, then you know, they might be eaten dry. That might be a time you could throw it on. 00;52;06;22 – 00;52;28;15 Scott Yeah. And the fire thing with others, traditional dries, you know what you have from the tail on the back And this is we see pictures of them perfectly as best most of the time. They’re actually sitting with the closest has in the water. I mean, it’s down to the water, bodies flush. You’d have to have the ultimate perfect condition with the ultralight wire hook. 00;52;29;06 – 00;52;47;04 Scott You know, nothing. The perfect cash. It landed perfectly softly. But most of our flies, we out with traditional hackles, actually are sitting on the surface. So are they taking them for a mayfly done or are they taking them for a murder? You know, for one, a glass of water and a Google glass of water guarantee. Also the body in the water. 00;52;47;15 – 00;53;02;00 Dave Right? Yeah. Nice. What about on your flies? We’ve talked quite a bit about fishing. You mentioned superglue. What would be your tips for somebody trying to get a more durable fly over time? Is that is that something are there some key tips to think about? There? 00;53;02;00 – 00;53;22;29 Scott I mean, adhesives were I mean definitely help out and how I apply a super is I squeeze down a piece of plastic and put out the oh, a toothpick. I got through thick disposable bodkin and we’re talking a smear. We’re not talking about two people. I would glue make you have it. You fly heavy. It’s like, you know what, Hats, man. 00;53;22;29 – 00;53;46;23 Scott Mostly things have a solvent and it works. Water or naphtha or whatever it is, it’s going to evaporate. The heaviest thing I fly it, shred. And one way to make more durable flies to if it’s feasible with the material, is finer thread. You get more wrap, it’s more secure. In the other hand with a big fly out form hairy at there is heavier thread where they tie a lot of one fly flies. 00;53;46;23 – 00;54;27;27 Scott We had parachutes. The last 100 fish is just a smear. Super glue on multiple straps. The t the time to durable flies is usually materials that are durable. I mean for using a hack, you know, a duck quill weighing, you know, still work on the wing shredded but it’s not going to be durable. You know I mean there’s a lot of stuff with parachute poly on GZ tire worth it fairly durable you know peacock quill you know it’s like yeah you’re quill Gordon some the classic firebug pad or buyout patterns are similar it’s a super or wrapping it worth extra fine wire or a piece of minor film what’s going to make it more durable? 00;54;28;12 – 00;54;43;19 Scott But there’s no reason to make the fly any more durable than the weak league on the hook. You know, I joke around with like names. We’ve had names on the got to be durable enough to lose it you know which might be three cast right I’ve spare to make a career out of a bead head now. 00;54;43;27 – 00;55;00;28 Dave Now now that’s this is good So okay, well, and what about you know, we’re going to take it out of here pretty quick here. And, you know, I think, again, we’ll have to follow up with you because this has been great. But let’s think about we mentioned flies again. What are the we talked to mergers. You’ve probably mentioned a number of them. 00;55;00;28 – 00;55;09;18 Dave What would be if somebody was going to go out and try to finish these mergers, do you think, just grabbing a typical soft tackle, tie up a few variations of that? That would be a good start. You know, to get going on this. 00;55;09;27 – 00;55;34;04 Scott We’re on, I think, you know, depending where you live, if you had, you know, a merger pattern’s in 14 to 18, like a dark, a tarnish, tarnish or gray and an old color, you could fly cover most of the hatches in the world. You know, some place you’re going to have bigger stuff because you have trachea shy stuff. 00;55;34;04 – 00;56;06;29 Scott Some places you’re going to have tell orders where you might need 20 or 20 tubes. But the reality is there’s a reasonable manner. Patterns will cover most those situations. And I think like that split top of mind or the foggy, I usually tie it with a pale pink or like an orange color wing, not like fluorescent orange. One of the most important things with any of those fliers get a good a good draft if you can’t see the fly and most time you can’t get a good draft, you don’t know if it’s dragging, you know, on the plane, RAF wing colors if you’re tired. 00;56;07;00 – 00;56;33;26 Scott I mean, black is a great color for post and flat light. It’s contrast, you know, fish and blowing olives always in glare ray dark colored wing can work so and had lots of land fish at reasonable distances motel plenty of people over the years Fish with your feet. Cash with your feet. Cash with your feet Yeah it just because you can make a 60 foot cash tray, but you’re never going to hook a fish and enable they’re going to spot like fish or fishing, eating emergency. 00;56;33;26 – 00;56;40;25 Scott They get as close as you can and get the fly there on the first cash where you want it. A lot of it’s just stealth. 00;56;41;07 – 00;56;52;25 Dave So don’t be afraid. What you’re saying is, yeah, it’s probably smarter to sneak up to within 40 feet or even closer to the fish and get a good cast as opposed to trying to shoot a 60 foot, you know, a Hail Mary, Right? Something like that. 00;56;53;03 – 00;56;59;00 Scott Yeah. Thought efficient, easier to fish at 20. At 20 feet than it is at 60 feet, I tell you that. 00;56;59;06 – 00;57;17;16 Dave Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good tip. I feel like it feels nice to cast long distances. Right. You get good at that. We’re all working on that. But it seems like the the smart anglers are probably the ones that catch fish are the ones that are being more observant, you know, taking their time, being stealthy and getting within. So you could see the fish too, right? 00;57;17;16 – 00;57;19;16 Dave You could really see the fish a little better as you get closer. 00;57;19;24 – 00;57;20;20 Scott Oh, exactly. 00;57;20;29 – 00;57;34;09 Dave Yeah. Wow, This is great. Well, there’s a ton more here, but I just want to take it out of here with our kind of our TIPS segment. We’ve already mentioned we’ve mentioned the book, so we’ve kind of covered the resources. We’ve got a bunch of great books, and it looks like yours are still out there, even though they’re out of print. 00;57;34;21 – 00;57;52;22 Dave Definitely the prices aren’t crazy, so people can still pick those up. We’ll get links in the show notes so people can grab those and all that. But let’s just take it again. Let’s think it flight time. So we’re talking, you know, high level. Somebody wants to tie some of these patterns, maybe, you know, one of your kind of your flight pairs we talked about today or others. 00;57;53;00 – 00;58;10;00 Dave What are a couple of tips you’re giving them on on flight tying in general? Are there some general flight tying things that people should be thinking about to make a good pairing, the higher ups and all the people and yourself, you had to get up to that level? Is it just a matter of practicing or how do they get how do we all get to that next level vacation? 00;58;10;07 – 00;58;10;17 Dave Yeah. 00;58;10;25 – 00;58;35;11 Scott Whether it’s trying for yourself or trying commercially, when you’re starting off the new pattern, always tie the biggest one first, the biggest size you’re going to use. I mean, proportions are much easier. And also tie multiple to the same flight. A lot of this kind of rhythm, you know, get the materials out, the commercial tie and get the materials out and prep them, have all those materials out. 00;58;35;25 – 00;58;54;23 Scott Yes, it makes it quicker, but also makes it more efficient. You’re going to tie butterflies because you’re not scrounging around to find stuff. The other things are really, really simple. It’s like, make sure you have enough lighting. I can’t believe people sometimes with fly time class, just like if you can’t see a fly, you can’t tie it fly. 00;58;54;23 – 00;59;23;24 Scott And the other thing is make sure your vise is at a level where your hands and your eyes work. I mean, that’s oversimplified, but it’s makes a huge, huge difference. And then don’t be afraid to experiment. I mean, I grew up with a lot of research and a lot of resources online flight time. I was at 12 and, you know, big budget plus, you know, the materials we have now don’t feel bad about substituting, you know, tries to use what you feel is the best thing for that fly. 00;59;23;24 – 00;59;47;02 Scott If it works better, it’s easier for you. Try it. You’re not doing anything wrong. You may be inventing a new fly, but repetition is probably the best thing. Good material shared correct materials. And this is where I fly shops and valuable is like, you know, and to go in there and you talk to me, it’s like, okay, I want to tie these type of flies, help me with materials. 00;59;47;25 – 00;59;54;27 Scott And a lot of with natural stuff like hair. I mean, not all hairs created equally, you know, just find the right thing for the right purpose. 00;59;55;06 – 01;00;09;14 Dave Right, right, right. This is awesome. And the fly shop’s a good tip, obviously, you guys and I think you guys went through a little, little upgrade there, right? Change in the shop. You had some renovation and I think so it still is. Is still. Yeah. What was the big change? Are you guys all done with that move? 01;00;09;25 – 01;00;32;23 Scott Yeah. I mean, thank God. You know, I’m still living out of boxes, but yeah, it’s a little it’s a smaller, more concise place. I mean, it’s mean efficient stuff. Not drastically is really isn’t any different, you know, little more refined, but that’s kind of about it. So, yeah, we got there. I mean, well, easier to get location to get to location than the town square, but. 01;00;33;03 – 01;00;46;23 Dave Okay. And we mentioned the of course, Jade’s and we’ve had Jack spent on the podcast a couple of times what said you have a good Jack Dennis story anything that what do you think of Jack you know I’m not sure how often you see him out there but any good stories from the past that you think of? 01;00;47;06 – 01;01;02;15 Scott Oh, yeah. I mean, he’s Jack’s a talker. You probably know that. I mean, he’s got the gift of gab. I remember sometimes the old days would be with me and Jeff Currie and Bruce James would be at a show with him and like who it is tired. And he wanted to go out to dinner with all these people. 01;01;02;15 – 01;01;26;19 Scott Always want to sit around and eat McDonald’s. But like when the great talking stories got from them from a boot sale and it was like basically the first guy, Dan Jackson and Jack work phone his kid at Fort Jackson is he left Jack to run the shop Jack finally, like 14 or 15. And they comes back and Jack’s not there, but he’s he looks down the street and he’s two blocks away still talking to a customer. 01;01;27;25 – 01;01;30;07 Scott So he’s definitely got the the gift of gab. 01;01;30;07 – 01;01;33;21 Dave And he’s followed the customer down the street as they’re outside of the store. 01;01;33;26 – 01;01;34;14 Scott Yeah. 01;01;34;19 – 01;01;49;19 Dave Oh, that’s amazing. That is perfect. I mean, some people just have the. You know what I mean? Like, you’re the I guess that question for you is, are you the type of person that could like Jack talk all day long? You still have energy at the end of the day. Are you do you kind of get burnt out when you’ve been doing the shows and all that stuff? 01;01;49;19 – 01;01;51;14 Dave At the end of the day. 01;01;51;14 – 01;02;06;00 Scott As long as I’m talking to people that are interested in it, you know, they’re passionate about it. Yeah, I mean, I can talk for a long time, you know, if it’s people that are just have a check off list, I mean, that you’re not going to talk to them for as long. But like, people are passionate about it. 01;02;06;00 – 01;02;23;11 Scott I mean, especially like, you know, kids who saw like that enthusiasm that you were, you know, had like on their kids fly time class. And the kids are totally having fun and we’re talking all kinds of crazy stuff. They’re enjoying it. I mean, that’s that’s the fun stuff is when the passions match up. It’s really cool. 01;02;23;24 – 01;02;41;15 Dave Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, it’s been good. Scott. I think we can leave it there for today. We’ve got a lot of great resources. We’ll put on the show notes. The we mentioned, the East Idaho Fly tying Expo is March 20th and 21st, so that’ll be awesome. People connect with you there and then everything else we have in the show notes. 01;02;41;18 – 01;02;47;10 Dave But yeah, I just want to thank you for all your time today. This has been amazing and yeah, looking forward to hopefully seeing you in person. 01;02;47;21 – 01;02;51;10 Scott All right, Thanks, Dave. Take care. 01;02;51;10 – 01;03;08;20 Dave All right. Hope you enjoyed that one. If you are like me, you’re wanting more. As always on this, Scott is a wealth of information. So great to finally get him on the podcast and we are going to be following up with Scott. The best chance for you to follow up with him. If you’re listening to this is check out the East Idaho Fly Tying Expo. 01;03;09;01 – 01;03;30;07 Dave It’s in March this year. It’s always in March. So if you get a chance, as Scott said, it’s a great event. It’s one of the big events he’s at, he mentioned. So if you’re not at the East Idaho Adventure and Tying Expo, this year, you can’t beat $50 flatiron classes from some of the best out there. So big shout out to that if you want to check in with me David Well fly swing dot com send me an email. 01;03;30;07 – 01;03;45;27 Dave We’re doing a lot of good stuff and wet fly swing pro That’s our way that we’re connecting on trips and everything else here. If you want to connect with me, do that at Workplace Swing Pro or I hope you’re having a good one. And I hope you have a chance to live that great trip this year. And I hope you have a chance to explore that road less traveled. 01;03;45;29 – 01;03;54;12 Dave We’ll talk to you then.